Joe: I agree with Sensing. :-) It seems like we are still having the discussion about how to operate in a (largely) Hobbesian universe. The Rule of Law must stand. But because this is a Hobbesian universe, Abu Ghraibs will happen. It is how we deal with them that counts. Let's make Twisterella's Answer into Katzman's Law, and employ it religiously within the current adminstration policy!
:-)

I'm trying to recall the thread in which Twisterella's Answer was discussed....

Joe: I don't remember which thread, but....
I said: "What is diplomacy in a Hobbesian Universe?"
You said: "The art of saying "nice doggie" while picking up a really big rock".

I think that in order for this to be a "teachable" moment, we would have to institute the kind of structural changes that ensure that this sort of thing never happens again. For example, give Iraqi civilian monitors with video cameras unlimited access to the prisons. Without structural reform, it's all puffery.

It's not going to happen.

While there may be some place for systemic improvement, there is no reform or system capable of ensuring that this sort of thing NEVER happens again. People are stupid, make mistakes, and are just plain evil. None of that will change. The lesson is that when you do something wrong, you are punished. This both deters future offenders and acknowledges personal responsibility for individual actions. These are the important lessons, not constructing some utopian system that can be defeated just like every other one.

"there is no reform or system capable of ensuring that this sort of thing NEVER happens again"
A few soldiers sneaking about, without the knowledge of their superiors is, as you say, impractical to always catch before they do any damage.
OTOH a system set up to actively use torture upon prisoners can be stopped.

As for "teachable" moments, one has to consider that the US setup a system designed to torture Iraqis, thats a pretty big lesson for the Iraqis to learn. And, of course, they'll only learn that ppl get punished for wrong doings in the US if the punishments are percieved as fitting the crime, and fixing the system.

I don't think we're going to get a chance to teach anyone anything. I think we have lost our audience.

I think that in order for this to be a "teachable" moment, we would have to institute the kind of structural changes that ensure that this sort of thing never happens again. For example, give Iraqi civilian monitors with video cameras unlimited access to the prisons. Without structural reform, it's all puffery.

Frankly, civilian monitors are a terrible idea. For one, there are certain methods of coercion I'd approve of - those aimed at getting information. I'd rather that those techniques not be subject to civilian approval.

The main problem with the abuse is that it was not only unproductive, but probably counterproductive. And that pictures were taken at all. The sexual nature of it is also puzzling and sick. I tend to think this is not systemic for that very reason. I can see that interrogators may have been given free reign, but I doubt any of the techniques pictured were ordered. There appears to be no technique, just some evil idea of fun.

How can a Hobbes model be applied to Iraq?

How would the Age of Enlightenment have fared, or perhaps the Romantic Age which replaced it, in today's Muslim world?

Universal truths have always worried me a bit.

Yes, I know, heresy. ;)