Okay, so we now have enough information to say that these are not simply copies, but were either forgeries, or "reproductions of originals" - which are forgeries by another name.

So, Joe, your early jump ended up being correct - mea culpa!

However, two things:

1. The documents were a side part of the story, which both USA Today and US News and World Report, and Boston Globe have independently verified as true - that Bush missed quite a lot of duty (AWOL?) and missed his ORDERED physical.
2. Will you ALSO write - 3 posts now - about "HannityGate"?

"If this last offense sounds familiar, it's because the right-wing media does it all the time. In February 2004, for instance, Fox News broadcasters Brit Hume, Sean Hannity, and John Gibson all showed a photo of John Kerry standing next to Jane Fonda on a podium at an anti-Vietnam War rally in the 1970s. It turns out the photo was fake. Did hordes of media critics demand retractions from Hume, Hannity, and Gibson? Of course not."

Link here

It would seem to me that Fox should be held to the same standard, wouldn't you agree?

In reality of course, people don't (and shouldn't) care that Bush was AWOL 30 years ago. People have had nearly 4 years of judging him as a president, and that IS what people will go on.

JC, the early jump to conclusions was more like a quiet stroll. This thing was obviously coming apart at the seams real early. If you want to give out Karnak Awards, give one to Armed Liberal for saying back on August 16th:

"Slate's search engine sucks, and so I can't find the stories in Kaus' archives about the overconfident Gray Davis and the way that the partisan, opinion-shaping coverage (led by the L.A. Times) of the recall election hung him out like a Chinatown duck.

If I'm correct, the media aren't doing Kerry any favors either."

Res ipsa loquitur (the thing speaks for itself).

RE: The Kerry photo: yes, FOX should be held to the same standard. We don't get FOX here in Canada, so I have no way of knowing if there was ever a retraction. If there isn't, there ought to be.

With High Holidays, my time is limited, so here's a proposal: if you can put together URLs showing [1] the doctored photo; and [2] its refutation(s), I'll run that as a post here.

Yes, I also agree with your last paragraph. John Kerry's Senate record and activities after he returned from Vietnam were also public activities, of course, and he in turn should be judged on those. A campaign that focused on those areas and hammered on what to do about various issues going forward would be amazing and is badly needed.

Rather's Folly has probably put that goal out of reach, however. I expect the next 2 weeks of the campaign to be about the media, extending to the rest of the campaign and hitting Watergate levels in the (I still believe unlikely) event that the Kerry campaign was the source of these memos.

From The New Republic

“Blogging's comparative advantage has nothing to do with the alleged superior skills of bloggers or their higher intelligence, quicker wit, or more fabulous physiques. The blogosphere is a media improvement because the sheer number of blogs, and the speed of response, make errors hard to sustain for very long. The collective mind is also a corrective mind. Transparency is all. And the essence of journalistic trust is not simply the ability to get things right and to present views or ideas or facts clearly and entertainingly. It is also the capacity to admit error, suck it up, and correct what you've gotten wrong. Take it from me. I've both corrected and been corrected. When you screw up, it hurts. But in the long run, it's a good hurt, because it takes you down a peg or two and reminds you what you're supposed to be doing in the first place. *Any journalist who starts mistaking himself for an oracle needs to be reminded who he is from time to time.*”

“CBS News has failed on all these counts. It did shoddy reporting and then self-interestedly dug in against an avalanche of evidence against it. Rather can blather all he wants about the political motivation of some in the blogosphere--but what matters is not bias but accuracy. His attitude, moreover, has bordered on the contemptuous; and the blogosphere has chewed him up and spat him out. He has acted as if journalism is a privilege rather than a process; as if his long career makes his critics illegitimate; as if his good motives can make up for bad material. The original mistake was not a firable offense. But the digging in surely is. It seems to me that when a news anchor presents false information and then tries to cover up and deny his errors, he has ceased to be a journalist. I'd like to say that Dan Rather needs to resign from his profession. But, judging from the last few days, he already has.”

(emphasis mine)

Was there any doubt that the story would change focus from Bush’s TANG service to the intent of MSM specifically CBS and credibility. Is too much emphasis placed on entertainingly and not on getting things right based on facts (soap opera drama).

Oracle journalists? Is this part of the public’s view of elitism and why elitism is a bad thing? IE If the elites wont bring down oracle journalists who will?

Sure it’s easy to blame Dan, but does Dan run CBS? In either case Dan has lost his credibility. Selling out to corporate CBS to present CBS views or selling out himself in denying he can be had.

One thing is for certain and it seems the MSM is taking heed not to mention a lot of notes. While vying for ratings their enemies are not the elite few in MSM any more. MSM is no longer the elite few and only game in town able to discern, justify and deliver news to the majority of the populace at large.

See my post I've been hanging in the Blogosphere this morning. Might be of interest here.

Ron

*****

[JK: redacted]

*****
DISCLAIMER - comentary (Not the opinion of my employer and/or organizations I'm affiliated0

Long version -

Bill

I tried to make this above as "pithy" as possible to catch your attn. This is about as short as I get.

Here's what I cut out and meant to say. I believe the Blogosphere (The Pajama Game) is trying to convey . Mind you some of these sites have ten of thousands of readers a day and thousands logged on at any given momment:

www.command-post.org
www.littgreenfootballs.com/weblog
www.powerlineblog.com
www.windsofchange.net
www.jihadwatch.org
www.rogerlsimon.com
http://haganah.us/haganah/
http://instapundit.com
www.allahpundit.com
http://wizbangblog.com
http://belmontclub.blogspot.com
http://www.blogsofwar.com
www.nationalcenter.org/Blog.html
www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/
http://athena.blogs.com/athena/
www.jquinton.com
www.adoptasniper.org
http://www.healingiraq.blogspot.com/

There are many more great sites out there and I will probably take some heat over this "blog roll" but I'm running out of time to post this piece. Many of the sites link to other blogs they watch.

In techie terms these forums can bring the focus of the world on any one site, person, MSM site, government et al. Do you know what the term "Denial of service attack" {DSM) means in the techie world? It means making the sewer stop up. Remember the old margerine commercial, "It's not nice to to fool Mother Nature."

The point here whether intentional or not is this exposed the biasses of the mainstream media (MSM) in this election. I agree that Rather didn't do this intentionally but it did expose his biasses. It's way "con games" work. You have to be a mark willing to believe in the "con." CBS got conned. Because of these institutional biases the American people is not getting an objective perspective of the WOT AKA War On Islamofascism.

The MSM has failed the American people in its journalistic responsibility to report objectively the news of the day. The media was given broad rights under the 1st Amendment by WE THE PEOPLE to control those who WE THE PEOPLE choose to govern. Without objective reporting the American people lack the means by which to make informed decisions in the presidential election. The MSM is quickly becoming irrelevant.

The MSN media is not covering a number of significant stories that the American people need to here so that they can make informed choices in the election.

The first is the, "Where's the beef [WMD]?" Iraq did have WMD it just moved. Saddam was in a nuclear conspiracy with Libya and North Korea to build nukes in Libya using Dr. A. Q. Kahn's readily available nuclear technology black market. This was all under the noses of the UN and the IAEA. Go figure. I don't feel safe. I'm sorry.

The next is the general assessment we are not liked in Iraq. Check the bloggers who report from their neighborhoods in Iraq and Iran. They paint a different perspective than what the MSN is reporting to the American people here. These are the true brave foreign correspondents of the war.

The next is the danger of the Mad Mullahs in Iran achieving nuclear capability within the next year while the IAEA and the UN dilly around. Never mind these Mad Mullahs think it's ok to hang a 16 year-old girl for the heinous capital crime of having sex with a boyfriend.

This is a religion of peace. Hell no Bill! This is what we're being led to believe. Just check out www.jihadwatch.org.

The Iranian people consider themselves Persian and not Arabic. The fundamentalists Arabs are the ones who brought Islamofascism to their country. They now greatly out number the ruling mullahs of the Islamofascist theocracy in power. The new generation of Iranians, "The Joyless Generation," are growing very restless about the repressive theocracy. All it will take is a spark to set off a revolt to topple this regime. Check out the Free Iran movement on the Net.

They tried once before but it was stamped out by the Mullahs but the world turned a blind eye. With the attention of the world (which you can help bring) focused on Iran and the US Military on both sides of Iran they will implode or they can be brought down from within by their own people.

Bill, this is the power of the Blogosphere but for now these stories need to come out in the MSN. You can be that network bridge that gives the Net and the Blogosphere a voice in the MSN. I'm a cop too and an a long time ago I wanted to right the injustices by those in power. The Net/Blogosphere can be a force multiplier. Imagnine all those folks sitting in their jammies keybanging out herewith their words of wisdom/advice/knowledge. These are no dummies, Bill. If you went to their real offices I'm sure their houry rate is many hundreds of dollars or the strategic thinkers out on the net who don't get the big bucks should. But sometimes money is not everything. Think of the Net/Blogsophere being a collective live nuro net interacting with the other nodes and coming together in conscious thought. It's ORGANIC Bill!

For the love of GOD, Bill! Our Country is at war with a cunning and very dangerous enemy that may possess doomsday weapons of Armageddon and the MSN is ROOTING for the enemy!

Ron Wright, Moderator
HPSIG Forums Site
www.hspig.org

DISCLAIMER - The opinions and comments expressed here are mine or those of the contributors and are not those of my employer and/or organizations I affiliated. But yes I do have a 1st Amendment right and your free to read this information and form your own opinions! HSPIG is a forum where these important thoughts/issues of the day can be discussed in a polite manner.

*****

Check out these links on our site and the links within these pieces. Here are some significant stories that the MSM have failed to cover:

The death cry of snob journalism (Michelle Malkin - Townhall 09-15-04)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1399

TERROR'S PALS IN THE PRESS (NY Post)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1400

Syria tested chemical arms on civilians in Darfur region (Die Welt - Germany)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1404

IRAN & THE MAD MULLAHS GOING NUCLEAR SOON! (HSPIG)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1366

Iraq, Libya, and N. Korea almost built Islamic Nuke (HPSIG - Quoting your own expert John Loftus)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=979

A Story of the Real, the Imagined, and the Wished (HPSIG Middle East desire for WMD)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=495

Americans don?t often get the right picture out of Iraq (National Review Online)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1237

Other essays, articles and information for reference:

GEO-POLITICAL STRATEGIC ANALYSIS AND THE WAR ON TERROR (HSPIG)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1064

THE WAR ON TERRORISM - A War of Ideas (HSPIG)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1000

[Smallpox] A Gap in Local Bioterrorism Response [HSPIG]
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=573

The Looming Threat [Mark Williams re Ken Alibek journal art Acumen]
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=442

BLOGGERS - A Call To Arms - Let's Roll - IRAN Hangs Girl 16 (HSPIG)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1343

Who Left the Door Open? (Time Magazine 09-04)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1387

A voice not heard from Iraq in media reports (http://www.healingiraq.blogspot.com/)
>From the Iraqi blogging dentist Zeyad
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=853

ESSAYS AND COMMENTARIES OF VICTOR DAVIS HANSON (Private Papers of Victor Davis Hanson)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1101

The Traditional Law Enforcement/Criminal Justice System Paradigm Is Ill Prepared to Fight this War On Terror - What Should Our Domestic Rules of Engagement be? (HSPIG)
http://www.hspig.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1275

[JK: redacted]

Ron Wright
Riverside, CA

Joe,

You mean, you're suggesting I contribute to the conversation by doing some actual RESEARCH?? Not just spout off semi-coherently? I should hold myself to a higher standard than "opinions are like (you-know-what"). Everybody's got one."

What a novel concept! Okay, hopefully, its not a nice invitation to a trap door - won't be able to do it for a couple days though.

Both USMC and Ron Wright touched on the "metanarrative" of the media world. As has A.L. intermittently. I'd like to add a bit.

A month or so back, A.L. was talking about the bad media response of the Kerry campaign to the Swift Boats idiocy, and how Kerry didn't handle it well.

However, this particular dust-up adds a couple of data points.

Let's start with a definition:

Meme - "A meme is a unit of information in a mind whose existence influences events: such that more copies of itself get created in other minds."

In this particular example, I am absolutely in awe of how the "meme" in this regard, took off so fast, and got repeated by so many mouths, as to absolutely, and quickly, require a response from CBS.

And what did the Bush administration have to do to "manage" this meme? Counteract it, spin it?

Absolutely nothing.

One thousand blogs, one million voices, megaphoning the meme, as if with one voice. This voice rose up, megaphoning roaring, crushing every inconsistency in the meme itself.

How much of the "truth" of the meme had to matter, really?

For example, if you track the history, at first the meme was about how New Times Roman didn't exist.

This was false.

Then it was about how proportional spacing wasn't available.

This also proved false.

After a couple of other rounds of this (and notice the justification of forgery keeps shifting), finally a comparison was made of documents written at the same time.

The point I'm making is, the right leading blogs, in coordination with Rush, and the right-leaning print media (NRO, Weekly Standard, Wall StreetJournal editorial), and right-leaning cable media (Fox News, sometimes CNN), has created a HUGELY powerful megaphone, with the explicit purpose of creating, distributing, and influencing the creation of "memes" and the creating, really, of meaning - what events are "about".

There is nothing of this scope, shape, or power on the left.

And this exists completely independently of what the Bush campaign does. The media mob/megaphone speaks. Congratulations. The power is yours.

I have one caution. Since those of you who identify with the above (sometimes called the "Mighty Wurlitzer" I guess, although I have no idea what the reference is to), you need to start taking this power seriously, because there clearly is a danger.

It is because of the megaphone, memes such as "WMD's in Iraq", or "connection between Iraq and Al-Queda" live on.

But at some point, you guys have to use your powers for truth - because you guys have the loudest megaphone.

And this is something that Kerry alone, can do little about.

If people disagree with the history, this really isn't the point of this comment - and to further the discussion I'm interested in, for argument's sake let's say I have the details of the history wrong. Fine. Just leave that alone. I'm really interested here, in how meaning is created in media, via many voices acting in unison, and how that does/does not necessarily have to line up with truth, to be believed.

There is nothing of this scope, shape, or power on the left.

Um, how about the MSM? Have they not (to pull a topic from downblog) successfully created a false meme that "assault weapons" = "machine guns"? Despite the fact that the federal statute in question is available free on the web?

The reason this lives on so well is because, well, the bloggers were right.

Times Roman existed, but only for typesetting, not typing. Proportional spacing was available, but only on expensive, uncommon typewriters. Kerning was flat-out impossible. And LGF got an exact match. Sure, it's possible this guy hired a typsetting company to print up his memos, but really--is it likely?

If CBS had had actual proof, or could have produced the a miracle MS Word typewriter (or if the competing parts of the MSM had simply wanted to ignore this), the story would have died, fast.

I'm not seeing a megaphone that can manipulate meaning here, just guys in pajamas who were right.

JC,

You do have some of the details wrong, in that the forms of these things necessary to create an exact reproduction did not in fact exist. That's why LGF's flash demonstration was so compelling by itself. The testimony in question was also coming in from IBM techs., Adobe & Apple techs involved with the early days of desktop publishing, guys who had programmed typesetting in assembler (LGF), et. al. So it was real, solid expertise - in contrast to CBS, who seemed to be trotting out half-qualified "experts" who would turn around and recant or qualify later.

Now, the power of it...

Think of it like baseball. Pitchers who throw really hard can get taken downtown fast, because they put so much energy into the ball that it has an equal and opposite reaction when hit. CBS released a "BIG story," at a critical time in a Presidential election, on one of its flagship shows. So the ball is coming in at about 110 mph.

It was the depth of that expertise tapped by the blogosphere (and Abagnale certainly was the cherry on that sundae), plus the jaw-dropping weakness of CBS' case, that produced the growing "roar". CBS' weakness made it a pitch right in the hitters' zone, and all those experts gave the blogs an excellent swing (one the media just couldn't ignore).

Result: a Sammy Sosa sized home run for the blogopshere. And the longer CBS sits there yelling at the umpire, the dumber they're going to look. (Keep that childishness up long enough, and there are going to be a bunch of ejections. I think the only question now is "how many ejections?")

Having said all that, and with the caveat that such things surely do exist on the Left (let's just say that I'd happily switch places), I believe the saying is:

"With great power comes great responsibility."

...and that's very true, and worth remembering if one is a blogger with a substantial readership.

As Bernard Goldberg explains in his books, CBS has been abusing their power for a while. This time, they pushed it a bridge too far.

Why do you need to crumple and xerox "reproductions"?

Answer: you don't. Unless you're trying to pass them off as copies of 1970s' era originals. CBS has already made a dog's dinner of this mess, now they're eating it. Not wise.

Sen. Joe McCarthy used forged documents and faked pictures to intimidate and harass witnesses of the committee
************************************************
Looks like we have come full circle.

P.S. How do you sign a reproduction after you're dead?

The stench from this story is ridiculous.

JC,
Joe’s baseball analogy gets at part of the truth, e.g. a huge sound will have a huge echo, but it's only part of the how the process works.

What made this situation evolve the way it has, is that the ideas and issues were fact checked along the way. The good explanations were believed and reinforced by more people. The poor explanations died off, and eventually went unnoticed.

If the memos in fact were authentic, or much better forgeries (scary thought, huh?), the conclusion would have been completely different. The whole thing would have short-circuited very quickly. There may have been some more grumbling about that liberal media, but CBS's story would have come out still standing, and in fact reinforced.

Your worries come from the false assumption that the blogosphere is some monolith being directed by some central force. That's not how it works. It’s just guys in their PJs.

Aside from the memos we basically have the word of a couple of known Bush enemies and active Kerry supporters. Balancing that are several character witnesses such as Hodges and the Killian's who were there at the time. The reason this story was a big deal was because of these memos, everything else has been around for years. The burden of proof belongs with the accusers, certainly when they are trotting around faked evidence. Try as you might, demanding that the 'story' is more important than the evidence is maddening, juvenile, and a sure loser.

Oh, and dont let me forget hearsay from an 86 year old woman who doesnt even have any claims of wrongdoing. The best Rather can dig up is a woman who (besides totally debunking his claims btw) says Bush acted like he could do no wrong? Is that a crime? Isnt that the definition of a fighter pilot btw?

[comment deleted]

Joe:
I am astonished that there was any controversy at all over whether or not the memos were forged. Charles Johnson's initial pantagraph proofs, the overlays, convinced me. The proofs are both robust and reproducible. An LGF reader fluent in document registration also did an affine transform on Charles' version of the memo. An affine transform that matches the CBS memo is isomorphic, the strongest proof there is. Johnson's work is rock solid. Mathematical proof should have been all anyone needed. Why anything else?

May you all have glorious High Holidays. This is where being a practicing sociobiologist really sux! We don't have any holidays OR special wonderful food! :(
Here is another really good satire, from IowaHawk, and the Acme company goes with Joe's Roadrunner theme.

http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2004/09/rather_blames_r.html

Lurker,

Actually, I agree. It IS guys in their pj's. And yet, they all seem to glom into one "meme". That's the fascinating part for me.

my opinion - the comments since my last comment here have been a BEAUTIFUL manifestation of what I mean.

Almost every post has gone on in detail about the "history" - which I might go back and comment on, but this has been the "lockstep" - from clearly individual-minded and bright posters - all about CBS, and what CBS has done, etc, etc.

Nothing at all about my pointers to the USA Today or US News and World Report story.

No admitting that the actual story 60 Minutes 2 was reporting on - that G.W. got special treatment, that he missed drills, that he was functionally AWOL, that he was ordered to have a physical, and didn't appear - looks to be true.

See, I would think people who weren't so fixated on a meme, might say, for example - "we were right! CBS documents were forgeries!! We rule!!!

Oh, and ummm, yeah, it definitely looks like the story that CBS reported on was correct..."
CBS was framing a guilty man

So, the metanarrative, the "meme" here, has emphasized certain facts, at the expense of others - I would say the priorities are skewed.

Now, again, this guilt of 30 years ago, doesn't, and shouldn't matter for this election. I think we all agree with that.

Back to the metanarrative, it seems like most posters here think a "meme" simply fizzles out, unless there is truth behind it. I hope so. But again, some "truth" gets emphasized at the expense of other, perhaps more important truths.

JC,

I think you'll find quarrels with the conclusion you reached about Bush. Don't assume that as a slam dunk.

But you're right, Bush was not seen as the main issue. Nor should he be.

What you're seeing is a bunch of people who have grown progressively more and more irritated at an unelected media that thinks things like framing the President of the United States (or indeed, any citizen thereof), or diplaying clear political biases, and then stonewalling when the evidence of their conduct is presented, is an acceptable use of their power.

Then an obvious situation of fraud and forgery came up, in the middle of a heated Presidential campaign, that fit a clear political bias which Rather in particular has often shown in the past. No surprise that it struck a lot of nerves, and got talked about. And when CBS struck back by stonewalling and disparaging the blogs, the dam really broke.

So you're right, Karl Rove didn't create the situation you saw. CBS did. Really, we could not have done it without them.

BTW, we talked about the history in response to your comment because YOU made it an issue. You implied that the blogs' evidence was false and fraudulent - and so you were corrected on those points. As CBS has been.

Your point about responsibility including blogs as well is a good one. But I read the rest of your comments, and I see a guy still trying to blame the messenger and create an equivalence where none exists. You've been forced to acknowledge the truth of the forgeries - and kudos for that acknowledgment. But you can't yet bring yourself to admit that this thing succeeded because the right-wing blogosphere had the facts on their side. It has to be a trick somehow.

JC, there's no trick to this. It's 2004. WYSIWYG (unlike 1971, of course, either in typesetting or in media criticism channels).

JC,
With respect to Bush's national Guard service... It's lile A.L. said, "It's already priced into the market". This stuff has been gone over for years. Everyone is likely to agree that, yeah, Bush probably did finagle his way into the Guard. The response has alwasy been a collective "So what", from everybody, except the most partisan Democrats.

We don't care that Clinton dodged Vietnam in England and visited the Soviet Union. We don't care that Kerry probably oversold his injuries to get his Purple Hearts to leave Vietnam early. We don't care that Bush dodged it by getting in the National Guard. We don't care about any of this 35 year old stuff, and if you look around, you'll see that this is true.

What's funny is that Kerry keeps trying to run on Vietnam, when no body cares. Really. And the funniest thing is that Rather and CBS ruined their reputations, for something that - even if the memos were real - nobody really cares about anymore.

The only ones who care are the Democratic partisans, because they apparently can't find anything else to run on. That's the real reason that the story isn't getting traction. Nobody cares! And that's why the fake memo's are the bigger story.

Joe;

You'll notice, perhaps, that I didn't defend Rather or CBS. I have a lot of the same problems with the MSM as you and other Right Wingers do, but because of the current highly partisan climate we cannot seem to agree on this.

But it is not I who am attempting to deflect focus from the real issues here

[rest deleted]

JC: The relative orientation of the meme also counts. For example, my background is science and mathematics, so Charles' proofs are "sufficient". I don't need anything else. The memos are forged. That's how my receptors are tuned.
But the whole issue of Nat'l Guard service is a "he said/she said" for me. I tend to tune it out without unequivocal proof one way or the other. Now, authentic memos would have been unequivocal proof that GW made an attempt to evade his service, but forgeries cannot prove that. Back to he said/she said.
Your receptors are tuned to suspect that GW did evade service, so you are more receptive to that meme, and you were far less receptive to the forgeries meme.
I think, not so much 'truth', but verifiability is a neccessary and sufficient condition for memetic transmission and diffusion in the blogverse.

[comment deleted]

[comment deleted]

VT

"Unlike the president, the young men and women trying to stay alive in the unraveling chaos of Iraq can't count on their daddies to get them out of the line of fire. "

Last time I checked the draft was in place during those years. This time around however it’s a horse of a different color. Why must we continue to compare apples to oranges?

[comment deleted]

"No, Mark, but extending the stay of current service members and enacting a back-door draft of Reservists and Inactive personnel to keep from doing what may be practically necessary but politically suicidal--having a draft or vastly increasing troop numbers--is clearly an ass-saving act of pure politics."

Back door draft? Get over it.

It would most likely help it people started with
Title 10 U.S. Code

Wouldn’t hurt to look at the
Reserve Components

Officer Appointment

If you really want to know why the military is so ticked off at MSM in general it is because they can’t even get the rules and regulations straight. That’s why all of this is a non-issue.

Here’s a prime example of why people don’t care. And yet he wins the primary for ward 8 in the District of Columbia. Give me a break!

Things have...branched off...in this comment thread.

[JK: very much so. Comment redacted, and see below]

jinnderella,

Yes, I apologize. I just realized we are a bit off topic. I can't help it when I smell blood in the water, though. I promise to stop.

Hey Mark,

Can I have fun with your last comment? I won't if it would bug you...

”I am not some foolish undergrad who is going to buy some bogus leftist dictat; I'll bet most of the audience isn't either. Why do you hold us in such contempt?”

Which brings us back to the topic at hand for which we still have no answers.

Oracle journalists? Is this part of the public’s view of elitism and why elitism is a bad thing? IE If the elites wont bring down oracle journalists who will?

I’ll add one more to the mix. Everyone loves to pick on the elitist yet there are no solid definitions of what one is. Having money and an education does not make an elitist.

Elitist Personally I'm going with 2a and 2b but then by definition we are all elitist to some extent.

John,

Thanks for the post - and going back to my last (even if off-topic) question. I appreciate...(Winders?, WoC'ers?) who look at the current reality clear-eyed, even if that current reality is unfavorable.

I'll take a look at that article later.

Best.

JC, you can use my comments as you like. I trust you to use your discretion if you want to poke fun at me. I can hardly object to good-natured ribbing. (I'll probably defer to the mods if we get off topic though : )

Now here’s my take on CBS and their stand concerning the documents which they are now playing off saying they aren’t important but what is important is the story they tell.

Here’s why it’s bad.

1 ) 60 Minutes II was modeled after 60 Minutes. The show when it first aired presented a view and substantiated facts to go with it. Yes the views were meant to be controversial but they were not fabrications.
2 ) Due to the nature of the facts surrounding the supposedly substantiated material aired by 60 Minutes II the show has now lost all credibility it may have once enjoyed.
3 ) CBS so far has shown no intentions of correcting the erroneous reporting or slip shod work done on the story.

How to fix it.

1 ) Fess up to the errors. (IE swallow your pride we all do some times and it’s nothing to be ashamed of)
2 ) State the show is nothing more than another super market scandal magazine thereby alerting everyone this is nothing more than Jerry Springfield entertainment on TV.

Take your pick either one works for me.

Well, this is annoying. A day off at Rosh Hashanah services, and I drop back in here, and we have a thread way off course again. And of course, Vesicle Traficker is the one responsible because he simply can't find anything else to talk about besides his hatred of George Bush.

Shades of another fanatic we know....

So here's what happens next:

[1] Every one of VT's comments is about to disappear from this thread.

[2] All comments in response will also disappear, unless they have link and/or items in them that can be considered valuable information. I see that there's some people who intend to look into them, so I'll leave them alone. But everything else goes.

[3] Further comments that do not address the subject of this post (CBS & the blogosphere) will meet the same treatment as VT's posts. Persistent offenders will be IP banned.

Our team members put real effort into these posts, and we value both their work and the quality of our comments section too much to allow these threads to be hijacked this way.

A further note: I am deeply sorry for the necessity of removing comments that people had worked on.

I will note that my contributions were included in that group, and I had rather liked what I had said. But to leave them up is to encourage more of the kind of behaviour that derailed this thread.

What I have done is create a Word document with the comments that had links in them. I have tried to email it to the participants who gave email addresses; if you're a participant and don't have it, email me.

Apologies.

Mark, another time.

(Feel free to delete this and the comment to Mark, Joe.)