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October 27, 2004New Energy Currents: 2004-10-27by Guest Author at October 27, 2004 5:25 AM
The world faces an onslaught of news stories beginning with "With the price of oil currently at $50 a barrel..." Get used to the hurt - with surging oil consumption in China, dwindling supplies of easily recoverable oil and gas, and widespread instability in many of the key energy producing regions of the world, the energy market isn't going to become significantly less painful any time soon. Beyond our woes in the industrialized world, billions of people in the developing world will also need to increase their energy consumption dramatically in the years to come, as they work to meet their basic needs and increase their standard of living. Despite what we might hear from the US presidential candidates (and energy lobbyists), there are no easy and no ready solutions to our energy problems. Fortunately, there's a lot of hard work being done by scientists, engineers, and (sometimes) policymakers around the world to come up with a wide variety of potential approaches that will compete with as well as compliment each other as we slowly transform our energy systems. To help you keep track of these developments as they happen, 'New Energy Currents' is a broad but by no means comprehensive compilation of noteworthy news in energy technology and policy from the past month. By John Atkinson of Chiasm.
Tracked: October 27, 2004 8:33 AM
Heavy Lifting from Crumb Trail
Excerpt: John Atkinson periodically posts a roundup of news and commentary on energy related issues at Winds Of Change. Despite what we might hear from the US presidential candidates (and energy lobbyists), there are no easy and no ready solutions to our energ...
Tracked: October 27, 2004 5:29 PM
Do You Like Energy? from chez Nadezhda
Excerpt: Do you like reading about energy?
Joe Katzman at WindsofChange, who I suspect is probably one of only a handful of people that is equally comfortable switching between <a href="http://worldchanging....
Tracked: October 27, 2004 6:51 PM
Cool round up on Alternative Energy from The Opinionated Bastard
Excerpt: Alternative Energy has a long way to go, that’s why its “alternative”. When it works, it will just be “energy”. But here’s a good roundup.
Tracked: October 27, 2004 11:04 PM
NU-NRG from chiasm.blog-city.com
Excerpt: My second and even more massive 'New Energy Currents' roundup of energy news is up, over at Winds of Change. READ IT AND WEEP (for joy!).
Tracked: January 30, 2006 7:17 PM
New Energy Currents: 2004-10-27 from Winds of Change.NET
Excerpt: Our energy systems are slowly being transformed: Wind, Water, Solar, Nuclear, Hydrogen, Fossil, Biofuels, and more. 'New Energy Currents' is a broad compilation of noteworthy news in energy technology and policy from the past month.
Comments
Great job, John! How about methane Hydrate? Dan - yeah, methane hydrates could end up being a huuuuuge, centuries-long resource - I'm definitely interested in the subject, so if there's been any news on this front recently do send me a link. ditto the potentially massive methane deposits below the earth's crust, which I think I mentioned in last month's roundup. it's just a question of getting at the stuff, obviously, and whether or not we'll first have the kinds of breakthroughs in renewables (or nuclear fusion) that would make the effort unnecessary. if we can find a way to economically get to that methane, though, we'd obviously solve our energy supply problems for a cool couple of centuries, and we'd have a huge source of cheap hydrogen feedstock to boot. greenhouse gases could still be a problem, of course, assuming we are still worried about that 'in the future'... best Hey, what about the guys who are making oil out of bio-mass? Do they not count because it is still oil being used to fuel stuff? After all, if we could make our own oil from our garbage, that would make oil a renewable resource, right? eric - thanks for the interesting link. synthetic fuels of all sorts definitely still 'count' in my book, we're still so early in the tech game that there's no point in counting anything out just because it's not 'renewable' or 'alternative' in a conventional (or any other) sense - hence my effort to include relevant news on nuclear and fossil fuels. for example, green car congress has a good post up yesterday (sadly not included in this roundup) on new tests on GTL fuel (gas to liquids - natural gas to liquid fuel, in this case), at http://www.greencarcongress.com/gastoliquids/index.html. the Nazis fueled their war machine for awhile on synfuels, and seeing as we have Hitler for president anyway (sarcasm) this kind of technology may have a real future in the US if there's an oil crisis in the nearish future. [btw, I work at an environmental non-profit staffed by much more activist-minded types, and if you ever want to see a doctrinaire green energy advocate totally lose their shit, try telling them that GTL fuels might end up solving our energy dependence problems instead of renewables.] that said, read through the comments in the turkeys-or-humans-or-whatever please do e-mail me with any other links for the next compilation! best
#6 from AC8 at 11:23 pm on Oct 27, 2004
Re Solar -- How much does it actually cost to generate electricity by solar and by oil? The cost to consumers includes distribution and taxes, and if solar power drops to the cost of generation inside of ten years, how soon will the cost of solar power match the cost to consumers? The most efficient, bold, creative innovations can be neutralized by the parisitic leeches we call legislators. Living in northern California on the small ranch my firefighter wife had started with her sister and her dad, I spent many weeks investigating wind, water, and solar power systems. We found that the State of California had an incentive program that would have given a substantial break to anyone investing in a solar/electric installation. Two years later, in the midst of the financial crisis that resulted from the corrupt influence-peddling of the disgraced alleged governor GRAY DAVIS (Enron and the others were only able to extort their gazillions of dollars from California consumers with HIS blessings, which the media outside CA don't seem to feel is worth mentioning...) the legislature introduced a proposal to TAX individual property owners for the value of windmills and solar power systems they'd installed! Who will spank the guardians of the exchecquer? (Can that be translated into Latin?)
#8 from j.pickens at 1:20 am on Oct 28, 2004
Wind turbines and solar photovoltaics are barely able to return the energy used to construct them. If massive conversion to these two technologies were to occur, there would be an extended period of time where the use of conventional energy to build these systems would outstrip our current energy uses. The ONLY reason wind turbines and solar photovoltaic generation plants are being built is that stupid pseudoenvironmentalists have caused governments to subsidize their construction. Sadly, this encourages building these systems in less than optimal wind or solar locations, causing the vast majority of these devices to be NET HYDROCARBON FUEL CONSUMERS!!!! Unfortunately, the same is also true of the Toyota Prius hybrid car. If you compare the actual mpg of these cars (average 55mpg) with a comparable Toyota Echo (average 38mpg) you fool the consumer into thinking he is "saving" 17mpg by driving the Prius. However, the Lithium Ion Hybrid batteries, and additonal electric motor in the Prius are highly energy intensive to produce. The energy to produce them, when divided up over the aprox. 150,000 mile life of the batteries, EXCEEDS the energy equivalent of the fuel saved. Again, the Prius WASTES HYDROCARBON FUEL, as Japan, which produces the batteries, gets 85% of its electricity from burning hydrocarbons, and electricity is what is consumed in making the additional components of the Prius, which are NOT consumed making a conventional equivalent car. If China has a bubble economy due to the valuation of its currency then I think its demands for oil are unsustainable. My guess is that post election we will see oil prices return to the $20 - $25 bbl region. Most of the supply problems are political rather than capacity limited. In fact I just checked and oil is down $2.70+ per bbl Wednesday. I expect further drops. I think $40 a bbl is likely within a month or two. Wind will not take off (2 - 3 nuke equivalents a year in the USA which would be 6,000 to 10,000MW nameplate rating) until production turbine size reaches about 4MW peak. At that point wind will be about the same cost as coal. What to build next will be a no brainer. Also the figue given for solar electricity at 2X the cost of current generation methods (coal, nuclear) is questionable. Now I might believe that 2X the cost of the current highest price electricity (natural gas) is a reasonable number. That still makes it much more costly than wind which is already lower cost than natural gas. As per usual the alternative energy market is more full of hype and hope than reality. BTW comparing a wind turbine whose capital cost is in the range of $3 million or so with a plant whose capital cost is $3 billion roughly is quite unfair. Especially given the fact that for roughly equal capital costs you get aproximately the same number of KWhs per year wind vs nuke. The advantage of wind is that decommisioning is easier and cheaper and there are few waste disposal or plutonium problems. The fact that wind is intermittent is not much of a concern until wind rises above 20% of total grid power. In America we are a long way from that. BTW North Dakota has the best wind resources in America. It also has the smallest concentration of grid connections and capacity. My guess is that over time we will see a lot of power users who can accept interruptable power if the cost is low enough moving to North and South Dakota. Aluminum and copper refineries are good choices to start. Possibly steel mini mills as well. I might also mention that the French have locked themselves into potentially high cost electical power with so many nukes. Once production wind turbine size goes above 10MW (nameplate) wind will be significantly lower cost than nukes. The fact that America is not building nukes means that in time our electricity will cost less than France's. It is the Minitel debacle all over again. What looked like an advantage turns into a disability. Don't know about Minitel? Google it. It is fascinating. j. pickens, Wind returns 10X to 20X the energy cost to build a turbine over its life time. About the same as a coal or nuke plant. I think you have old data on wind (when turbine size was on the order of 100KW or less). You are correct about solar. Any viable energy technology will have to be in the 10X or above range. BTW one of the big uses of solar is oil field monitoring equipment. Interesting. m. simon - good points all, though I'm skeptical that oil prices will drop that much that fast. and while I agree that it seems unlikely that China's economy will continue to grow as much as many predict, India's oil imports are growing almost as fast, and between the two of them I think there'll be enough growth in demand to keep oil markets tight. I look forward to being proven wrong. & the solar = 2x conventional figure is from the article, I don't know what exactly it is comparing but I agree that it's suspiciously competitive - I'm sure some creative accounting went into it. & I have hazy memories of Minitel from my old French language textbooks, which certainly didn't get into the case history very much - I'll take your advice and see what I learn. thanks! best
#13 from praktike at 5:27 pm on Oct 28, 2004
Here you go, M. Simon--wind energy may be coming to the Panjshir Valley.
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