Welcome! This briefing will be looking hard at the dark places the mainstream media sometimes seem determined to look away from, to better understand our declared enemies on their own terms and without illusions. Our goal is to bring you some of the top jihadi rants, idiotarian seething, and old-school Jew-hatred from around the world, leaving you more informed, more aware, and pretty disgusted every month. This Winds of Change.NET HateWatch briefing is brought to you by Lewy14 (hatewatch@winds...), and by zorkmidden of Discarded Lies. Past briefings and posts on related topics can be found here. Entil'zha veni!
HIGHLIGHTED TOPICS
- Religious Hate: PA TV airing anti-Semitic sermons; anti-Semitic sermons from Egyptian clerics; PA-TV incitement marks "Al-Nakba"; Kidnap and murder in Bethlehem; Baptist church firebombed in Russia; KSA holds bible toting Indian incommunicado; Kuwaiti Islamists oppose political rights for women; Gay editor bashed in Amsterdam.
- Idiotarian Seethings: UK student warned to stop protesting anti-Semitism; Kazakh parliamentarian raves about Jewish conspiracies; Turkish newspaper portrays Schroeder as a Nazi; Berlin tennis club: Nazi era = Golden era; Green fisks Buchanan; Wal-Mart: zoning laws = book burning.
- Race and Culture: Neo-Nazi groups in Germany adopting al Qaeda tactics; Turkish Intellectuals against Antisemitism; Fascism and racist attacks flourishing in Russia; Leaflets distibuted in Ukraine call for murder of Jews; anti-Semitism in the Czech Republic; Bulgarian nationalism; neo-nazi spammers.
- A Hopeful Note: Kuwait approves political rights for women; Neo-nazi march halted in Germany.
- Palestinian television aired the following Friday noon sermon featuring Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis
"The Jews are the cancer spreading all over the world...the Jews are a virus like AIDS hitting human kind...Jews are responsible for all wars and conflicts...." He went on to say, "Do not ask what Germany did to the Jews but what the Jews did to Germany. Through the Zionist movement the Jews incited many nations to start economic war against Germany and boycotted it...True, the Germans killed and burnt Jews but the Jews exaggerate the numbers to gain propaganda advantages and sympathy..."
The Simon Wiesenthal Center is asking Abu Mazen to fire the head of Palestinian TV
- Video and transcripts of Sheik Mudairis’ “sermon”, along with those a couple other like minded Egyptian clerics, can be found at MEMRI-TV - check it the collection.
- The sermon broadcast noted above was part three hours of “almost non-stop anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish incitement” broadcast by official PA TV on Friday May 13, two days before the anniversary of the founding of Israel. Part of the program was devoted to an interview of one of 39 Fatah and Tanzim gunmen who had taken over the church of the Nativity in Bethlehem in April 2002.
Al-Ganazra and other Fatah members used nuns and priests as human shields in 2002, but today he accused Israel of human rights violations because it would not allow him and other "mub'adeen"-banished persons-to return from Gaza to the West Bank. Some of the men were also accused of physically abusing the Christian worshipers kept hostage in the church, but Israeli forces did not storm the church for fear of irreparably damaging one of Christianity's holiest places.
See this post for a reminder of how the church and it’s contents were treated by the Palestinians.
- Religious strife in Bethlehem has lately taken another tragic turn:
Tensions are running high in Bethlehem after members of a local Christian family accused a Muslim man of kidnapping their 16-year-old daughter. The girl, who holds US citizenship, was rescued with the help of American diplomats.
The accused kidnapper claims the girl wants to marry him and convert. Some parents aren’t taking that chance:The incident in Bethlehem comes only days after a Christian man from Ramallah brutally murdered his daughter because she had expressed her desire to marry a Muslim. The victim was identified as Faten Habash, 20.
Hatred stronger than the love for a child... words fail.
- Baptist Church Firebombed in Chelyabinsk
A Baptist church in Chelyabinsk was firebombed over the Russian Easter holiday, according to a May 4, 2005 report by the Slavic Law Center. The incident happened the night of April 30. A Molotov cocktail was thrown against the door, setting it on fire. Parishioners rushed out to extinguish the blaze before it engulfed the church. Police later arrived and recorded in the incident.
Local Baptists blame a recent press conference and accompanying television broadcast about “totalitarian sects” which featured footage of the Baptists and their church. The press conference was organized by the region’s human rights commissioner—Ekaterina Gorina—who in recent years has expended considerable time and effort in persecuting local Jehovah’s Witnesses.
- Saudi religious police took an Indian man in to custody back in January, and is still held incommunicado:
"The Muttawa [religious police] asked Varghese for his passport. However, he was only able to give them a copy because the Saudi government had taken his passport since he was requesting a visa extension. They then asked him what was in his bag. In his bag, he had one Bible in the Hindi language. The Muttawa then took Mr. Varghese away and there has been no communication from him since."...
The linked story has more information on the man and requests “individuals to contact a local Saudi embassy to politely express their concern”.
- Although they made progress (see below), women in Kuwait faced stiff opposition in their fight for political rights:
Written on huge banners canvassing hundreds of town hall meetings organized by Islamists all across Kuwait is the following statement: "According to Islamic Sharia, women do not have political rights." This is part of a concerted effort by Muslim conservatives to stem a potential wave of reform in the country after Parliament, in a first round of voting, passed a bill granting women the right to vote and run in municipal elections. [emphasis mine]
The author of the linked article Souheila Al-Jaada , disputes the idea that Islam forbids political rights for women. She may be right, but far to many Islamists still disagree.
- Chris Crain is the editor of the Washington Blade, a leading gay magazine. He felt safe walking hand in had with his boyfriend in Amsterdam, but was the victim of a gang of Moroccans which left him badly bruised. The Times article reviews the deteriorating situation for gays in Amsterdam. Leaders of that community seem to be talking past each other:
Gay campaigners are outraged that sensitivity about intolerance towards Muslims is blinding people to intolerance from Muslims. Scott Long, the director of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender programme at Human Rights Watch, the human rights group, caused outrage when he declared: “Gays often become the victims of this when immigrants retaliate for the inequalities they have to suffer.”
While not rejecting the entirety of Long’s perspective, I side more with Crain. There is a religious aspect to these attacks which would not go unmentioned if the attackers were Christian, though social aspects also likely play a part.Mr Crain, who has been deluged with e-mails of support from Dutch citizens, thundered back: “Long’s ‘blame the society’ political correctness is a distraction from the very real cultural clashes happening in Holland and elsewhere.”
- London's School of Oriental and African Studies, where anti-Semitic incidents have increased in recent months, has issued a disciplinary threat to one of its Jewish students because he has been protesting against anti-Semitism at the university. Gavin Gross, an American, has been leading a campaign against the deterioration of conditions for Jewish students at SOAS, which is part of the University of London. UK student warned to stop protesting anti-Semitism
- Kazakh Parliamentarian Raves About Jewish Conspiracies
A member of parliament in Kazakhstan blamed a “kike-Masonic” conspiracy centered in the US for the overthrow of the government of neighboring Kyrgyzstan, according to the May 6, 2005 edition of a periodic bulletin from the Kazakhstan International Bureau for Human Rights and the Rule of Law—the country’s leading human rights organization. Erasyl Abylkasymov, the author of a controversial bill aimed at more closely regulating NGOs in the wake of events earlier this year in Kyrgyzstan, called for an alliance of Turkic-speaking and Russian Orthodox peoples against “the Washington hawks who put on the face of contemporary Hitlerism.” Sounding much like the fuhrer, Mr. Abylkasymov reportedly went on to claim that: “The dreams of [Zbigniew] Brzezinski and other members of the world government like him to break Russia up into several states should remain nothing more than a fantasy of the kike-Masons.”
- A Turkish Islamist newspaper illustrated an article about Chancellor Schroeder with swastikas. The newspaper is also being investigated in Germany for inciting racial hatred by claiming that the Holocaust was a fabrication. Around 10,000 copies of Anadoluda Vakit are sold in Germany which is home to around 2.5 million Turks. Germany outraged at Turkish paper’s Nazi portrayal
- A program for the German Open tennis tournament held at Berlin’s Rot Weiss tennis club has caused some justifiable outrage. Containing pictures of a smiling Goering and other Nazi officers, the program recalls the Nazi era:
The text describes how Jewish members of the club fled Hitler and continues: "With its membership reduced by half in this way, the club, previously known as a 'Jewish club,' opened itself to new members."
I’m filing this under “idiotarian” as an act of charity, to give Rot Weiss the benefit of the doubt that some Germans so stridently demand."In sporting terms this change brought no interruption for the club and top German tennis. On the contrary, golden times ensued."
- Blogger Steven “Vodkapundit” Green lays it thick on Pat Buchan, over the latter’s recent comments on the legacy of WWII and Yalta – idiotarian at best, and arguably Nazi apologist. Buchanan asks:
If the objective of the West was the destruction of Nazi Germany, it was a "smashing" success. But why destroy Hitler? If to liberate Germans, it was not worth it. After all, the Germans voted Hitler in.
Right! And they could have just voted him out… oh wait… [Psst. If you’re looking for a sane and insightful reflection on Yalta and the sixty years since, look no further than our own Joe Katzman’s excellent piece.]
- A recent Wal-Mart ad in the Arizona Sun provides a textbook example of Nazi trivialization:
The full-page advertisement included a 1933 photo of people throwing books on a pyre at Berlin's Opernplatz. It was run as part of a campaign against a Flagstaff ballot proposal that would restrict Wal-Mart from expanding a local store to include a grocery. The accompanying text read "Should we let government tell us what we can read? Of course not . . . So why should we allow local government to limit where we shop?"
Book burning, zoning, same thing, right? Riight. Wal-Mart quickly admitted it had made a “terrible” mistake.
- Neo-Nazi groups in Germany are increasingly adopting Al Qaeda's model of "leaderless resistance", forming networks of loosely connected terrorist cells. Neo-Nazi street violence has been on the increase since the start of the year.
- Antisemitism in the Turkish Media: Turkish Intellectuals Against Antisemitism
Antisemitism in the Turkish media targets not only Jews in general, but also the Turkish citizens who are members of the small Jewish community of about 20,000 people. Increasingly, newspapers are accusing Turkish Jews of disloyalty, of betrayal, and of having hidden and sinister agendas. The Turkish media has recently blamed the Jews for espousing secularism and for espionage against Turkey. This antisemitism, in which Turkish nationalism and radical Islam find common ground, is of growing concern to some Turkish intellectuals.
- Russia: Rights Groups Say Fascism, Racism Flourishing
The Moscow Bureau for Human Rights released a report on racism, xenophobia, and neo-Nazism in Russia based on the results of recent opinion polls. According to the report, half of Russians consider that foreigners in Russia have "too much power" and say they are ready to support measures limiting the presence of nationals from former Soviet Central Asian countries.The reports also showed that one-third of Russians described neo-Nazis as "cleansers of society" while 43 percent of respondents said they were disturbed by the presence of foreign nationals in Russia.
- The United Nations Human Rights Commission said racist attacks were on the rise in Russia and that a growing "skinhead movement" has been responsible for many incidents: Russia jails six young men for racist murders
Several racist killings -- particularly the murders of two Tajik girls aged 5 and 9 -- have provoked widespread revulsion and brought calls for the government to crack down. President Vladimir Putin has called for greater racial tolerance and accused extremists of trying to encourage hatred to hamper the Kremlin's drive against terrorism.
Attacks blamed on Chechen separatists have been accompanied by a rise in brutality against people clearly identified as non-Russians, much of it directed at darker-skinned Muslims from southern Russia and nearby ex-Soviet states.
- In the Ukraine, leaflets were distributed to passerby calling for “the highest form of punishment—death by shooting” for “conspirators and leaders of international Zionist political and religious organizations acting on the territory of the country.”Leaflets Distributed in Donetsk Call For Murder of Jews. Attacks on Jews and Jewish property have increased in Donetsk over the last year.
- Anti-Semitic acts in the Czech Republic, even though smaller in number than those in Poland and Germany, increased in 2004. A newspaper poll found Israel to be the country that Czechs most disliked and one of the only university courses about the Holocaust taught in the Czech Republic is given by a professor who tells his students that the tragedy is used as a political weapon.
A commercial earlier this year for a gardening company that portrayed an Orthodox Jew as a greedy bargain hunter was taken off the air only after the intervention of the Israeli ambassador. Even then, many commentators felt the Jewish community had overreacted, and claimed it likely would result in more anti-Semitism.
- In Bulgaria, a recent survey revealed hostility towards the Roma with 86 per cent of the respondents describing them as "lazy and irresponsible" and 92 per cent saying the Roma have criminal tendencies. They're not too crazy about Turks either, some 62 per cent viewed ethnic Turks as "religious fanatics". Nationalism Retains Grip on Bulgaria's Youth
- And finally, as if we needed yet another reason to hate Nazis – now they’re friggin’ spammers, too!
Bearing German-language subject lines that translate to phrases like "Multicultural = multicriminal," the messages point to racist German Web sites and news articles that could be used to support anti-immigrant views.
The spammers are exploiting cracked machines zombified by the Sober worm. I’ve gotten a ton of these lately.
- Kuwait finally approved political rights for women, albeit with conditions: fundamentalists included a requirement that any female politician or voter abide by Islamic law. Such conditions put on the bill would violate the constitution, according to Massouma al-Mubarak, a political analyst and professor at Kuwait University.
Women can now vote in all Middle Eastern nations where elections are held except Saudi Arabia, the apartheid state.
- A far right march in Berlin ran into a human wall of opposition:
A neo-Nazi march in Berlin was stopped by thousands of anti-fascist demonstrators Sunday after a tense standoff that overshadowed Germany's ceremonies marking the end of World War II in Europe 60 years ago.
It should be noted that the march was organized by the NDP (a far right but legal political party), and their right of self expression was thus somewhat curtailed. Further, the confrontation was not without violence on both sides. Still, Berlin is not Skokie, and it is heartening to see so many Berliners stand up to the Nazi wannabes.
HipHipHooray for Kuwait actually coming through with solid rights for women, after its original halfway commitment met with such positive reaction, as in this column, for which thanks here.
New reason for concern ('Us' being soviet espionage when the cold war ended for most of us): "For us that meant: while favourable circumstances exist it is essential to utilize the respite to deploy to the West as many Illegals as possible and to cultivate and recruit more special agents."
From former Soviet biochemical weapons agent Alexander Kouzminov, see: http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/politics/news/shownews.jsp?content=n0518113A#
not a word on mass murder in Uzbekistan? Nothing about Rick Santorum calling democrats Nazis?
And why has no one on this site commented on the New York Times story about the torture murder of Afghan detainees --- and the two and a half year cover-up by the Bush regime of those murders?
(yet the comments from some journalist that no one ever heard of gets a full post ..... who knows if she is right or not? After all, the Bush regime isn't going to admit that it is targetting journalists, any more than it admitted these murders. They will cover up and deny the most egregious atrocities until someone finally has the cojones to leak documentary proof --- and then the Bush regime defenders will talk about how it all "happened years ago" and how much worse the "terrorists" have been....)
Uzbekistan is covered here, I thought Dan did a balanced job, you may differ. I have my own post in the works that touches on Uzbekistan, if I ever finish it. Santorum is on my list for the next update. As for the crimes at Baghram, I'd agree that it's a worthy topic. On reflection on my own reading of that article, (and I did read all six thousand words), there may be aspects that are within scope for this Briefing. That you will find all this satisfactory is not something I can guarantee.
rsmythe,
Political murder is not the same as organized hate, which is the topic of this briefing. We don't cover the Chinese gulags here, either (though there may be room to cover Tibet in this context). We could cover Zimbabwe, however, because there's a strong tribal dimension to the violence and organized hate by Mugabe's government against other ethnic groups. See the difference?
And in truth, whether you see it or not, this is what informs Lewy's coverage.
We covered Uzbekistan via regular features on this blog, lots of analysis there to think about. I'd advise you to look into it.
We don't cover normal political namecalling that doesn't rise to the level of organized, incited hatred. About the only U.S. politician I can think of offhand who rises to this level in Congresscreature Cynthia McKinney (D-GA), whose hatred of Jews is well known and often publicly stated.
JK:
You were a little piqued, for sure, and M.Smythe seems to take a censorious view of an extensive and commendable post because it missed his favored topics. I have asked myself for something to be covered, and it was, very adequately, in Kuwait.
However, Joe, you in the same paragraph disapproved of 'namecalling' and then refered to 'Congresscreature...'? While I too think antisemitism is surely less than distinguished, that still is namecalling, isn't it?
Both you and lewy14 are right to stand up for DD, of course, who does a good service.
Political murder is not the same as organized hate, which is the topic of this briefing.
I would agree. And it seems clear that what was done to the two murdered Afghanis (and heaven knows how many others who didn't happen to die) was not a "political murder", but organized hate. No one is being charged with murder in these killings --- the worst charge is "involuntary manslaughter". Much of the torture that took place was not even related to "interrogation" --- it was pure and simple beating of people because of their beliefs.
To say that this....
"He screamed out, 'Allah! Allah! Allah!' and my first reaction was that he was crying out to his god," Specialist Jones said to investigators. "Everybody heard him cry out and thought it was funny." Other Third Platoon M.P.'s later came by the detention center and stopped at the isolation cells to see for themselves, Specialist Jones said. It became a kind of running joke, and people kept showing up to give this detainee a common peroneal strike just to hear him scream out 'Allah,' " he said. "It went on over a 24-hour period, and I would think that it was over 100 strikes."
....somehow does not fall into the category of "organized hate" is absurd.
rsmythe,
You obviously read this briefing for what is does not contain rather than what it does.
Good round up Lewy.
What I really find most useful about the job you do here is not the links to those stories like the Afghan abuse which is getting wide play on the net, but the things that I tend to miss in my surfing.
And I really don't need a report about one elected official calling another elected official a name, I get it live everyday right on my TV.
Joe, TG, I appreciate the comments and I agree with them. I would offer a few [OK, many] words of additional clarification.
With respect to politicians and political speech, it is true that zorkie and I mostly look the other way, because it’s so common and goes with the territory. As to derogatory remarks about public servants as a class, “Congresscritter” (the more common form) has such currency that I’m surprised my word processor considers it a spelling error. [E.g. on HBO’s Deadwood, psycho killer Wolcott said in reference to the county commissioner: “I am a sinner, and I do not expect forgiveness, but at least I am not a Government official”. Funny as sh-t. Arguably unfair, cynical, and rude, and still a huge (and likely bipartisan) laugh line. This is Hatewatch, not Mannerswatch].
I make exceptions for particularly egregious racial or religious insults directed at political figures, especially those which I don’t think get adequate coverage. Further, there is the whole business of comparison to the Nazis, where even if the target of the comparison should be expected to have a thick skin, the continual facile and dubious comparisons devalue the historical impact of the actual Nazis and their crimes. Wal-Mart fell into that bin this week; I’m going to look closely at Santorum’s comments in that regard.
Finally on the crimes at Baghram: many motives can be considered, among them Vengeance, and Wrath. This isn’t Sin Watch, it’s Hatewatch, and I don’t cover road rage either. And before you flip over my flip remark, rsmythe, keep reading. The pure fascination of hurting others for sport also seems to be at play here, but this isn’t Sadism Watch either. Now Vengeance, Wrath and Sadism are all to be condemned, vigorously: I know some who would disagree about the Vengeance part but I’m not among them. Another aspect is torture for the production of intelligence. I’ll acknowledge that this is a serious issue but again it’s not like this isn’t discussed in other places. With respect to Baghram, there remains the possibility that on aspect of motive for the torture and killing of the two prisoners wasn’t a sickness of the Soul, or the Psyche, or a (possibly criminal) attempt to obtain Intelligence – but instead, a collective and organized will to punish people for who they were and what they believed. And that would surely make it a topic for this briefing, and I have to say that the excerpt you quoted provides some evidence of this possibility. I’ll take another look at the article.
Joe may have a different opinion here; I think the question would revolve around the critical mass for what one would consider “organization” of organized hate – was this case spontaneous, or premeditated in some way? And where does the standard of evidence and benefit of the doubt lie? I’m open to input.
rsmythe, I’ve answered you at length because your concern and distress appears to me to be sincere, and not a product of our rather obvious political differences, and your response is considered and civil. I appreciate this, thanks.
rsmythe, I’ve answered you at length because your concern and distress appears to me to be sincere, and not a product of our rather obvious political differences, and your response is considered and civil. I appreciate this, thanks.
Thank you.
To me,warfare in itself is usually a form of "organized hate" -- we (rightfully) require our soldiers to kill "the enemy" without any regard for their humanity, or the morality of taking another human life. We do, however, demand that the "hate killing" be done in a "lawful" manner --- and it is America's insistence upon "the law" that makes us possible for us to be say that we are different from the pre-modern "rape, pillage, and torture" model of warfare.
There are certain aspects of that article that strongly suggest that the limits imposed by "the law" were being ignored --- and that this was deliberate. I found these quotes particularly shocking...
Even though military investigators learned soon after Mr. Dilawar's death that he had been abused by at least two interrogators, the Army's criminal inquiry moved slowly. Meanwhile, many of the Bagram interrogators, led by the same operations officer, Capt. Carolyn A. Wood, were redeployed to Iraq and in July 2003 took charge of interrogations at the Abu Ghraib prison.
But documents and interviews reveal a striking disparity between the findings of Army investigators and what military officials said in the aftermath of the deaths. Military spokesmen maintained that both men had died of natural causes, even after military coroners had ruled the deaths homicides. Two months after those autopsies, the American commander in Afghanistan, then-Lt. Gen. Daniel K. McNeill, said he had no indication that abuse by soldiers had contributed to the two deaths. The methods used at Bagram, he said, were "in accordance with what is generally accepted as interrogation techniques."
But with President Bush's final determination in February 2002 that the Conventions did not apply to the conflict with Al Qaeda and that Taliban fighters would not be accorded the rights of prisoners of war, the interrogators believed they "could deviate slightly from the rules," said one of the Utah reservists, Sgt. James A. Leahy. "There was the Geneva Conventions for enemy prisoners of war, but nothing for terrorists," Sergeant Leahy told Army investigators. And the detainees, senior intelligence officers said, were to be considered terrorists until proved otherwise.
That instruction included an overview of "pressure-point control tactics" and notably the "common peroneal strike" - a potentially disabling blow to the side of the leg, just above the knee. The M.P.'s said they were never told that peroneal strikes were not part of Army doctrine. Nor did most of them hear one of the former police officers tell a fellow soldier during the training that he would never use such strikes because they would "tear up" a prisoner's legs. But once in Afghanistan, members of the 377th found that the usual rules did not seem to apply. The peroneal strike quickly became a basic weapon of the M.P. arsenal. "That was kind of like an accepted thing; you could knee somebody in the leg," former Sgt. Thomas V. Curtis told the investigators.
Now certainly, some of what happened at Bagram (and Abu Ghraib) can be chalked up to a lack of training. But there is far too much that suggests that "the rules/the law" did not apply at Bagram --- and that the dehumanization of the enemy that is a necessary part "organized hate" of warfare was allow/encouraged to extend itself to the treatment of detainees.
I have a great deal of empathy for those who committed the torture of prisoners --- how was the average soldier supposed to interpret the transfer of Captain Wood from Afghanistan (where things were slowing down) to Iraq (where things had heated up?) other than as approval/acquiescence to the methods employed that resulted in the deaths of Habibullah and Dilawar? To me, the real guilty parties are not the soldiers who committed these heinous acts, but the leadership (all the way to the top) that (at best) sent mixed signals about what was permissible.
rsmythe,
Factual point: The Geneva Conventions do not apply to the conflict with al-Qaeda. Much of the raison d'etre for those very Conventions is tied up with why that is so.
And why anyone would campaign strenuously to put those terrorists under a system to which they are not entitled and in which they are not obliged to answer any questions is beyond me. Personally, I think that worldview is insane.
War is not part of the hatewatch briefing. We have lots of other briefings for that. This briefing is about organized mass hatred outside of war - and when you look at the death tolls last century, war loses in a landslide - around 169M to 36M).
There's a reason we chose to cover this stuff.
Nor, given that definition, is this a forum even for the ennumeration of torture. If it were, the Islamic Republic of Iran, China, and many other nations would easily fill these posts to overflowing. Note their absence.
Lewy, if those example are fit, I would expect to hear lots about Chinese, Iranian and other systems as well in future briefings. Personally, I would look at that as a distraction from the animating purpose of this briefing and the serious issue it represents. One of the filters I use in referring things, for instance, is "is this the sort of thing that could lead to the systematic murder of thousands outside of war."
Much as I despise the Iranians, it would be hard to fit their torture practices into that unless we were talking about it as emblematic of treatment of Bahais in general. And that might be a stretch. The Chinese may have more exposure given the Tibetan issue, but even then my tendency would be to focus HateWatch on the macro-level cultural genocide/ ethnic cleansing aspects, which to me are both better fits and more consequential on a larger scale.
My 2 cents.
how can you dehumanize that which is already inhuman ?
No, our enemies have dehumanized themselves, by their own actions.
Its our humanity we are interested in preserving. not theirs, they have none.
That is why we hold a dim view of those of us that violate our standards.
And for that, we certainly need no advice from the left, standing beside their mountain of skulls.
The Geneva Conventions do not apply to the conflict with al-Qaeda.
If that conflict is regarded exclusively as a "law enforcement" issue, that is the case -- and then other aspects of international law apply.
However, when we start talking literally about a "war on terror", all individuals captured in battle or who are under the control of an occupying authority/the military are subject to the Conventions. That does not mean that everyone is treated like a POW -- civilians are not treated like POWs, for instance, but civilians cannot be detained "indefinitely" unless there is evidence of criminal activity.
There is no "suspected terrorist" category in the Geneva Conventions, nor is there any special category for a "war on terror" --- when the US uses military force outside its own territory, the Geneva Conventions apply, and when the US places non-American citizens under US military authority, the Conventions apply.
The Conventions were designed to be "open-ended", i.e. they were intended to cover all instances concerning the use of military force. The US has attempted to claim that there exists some sort of amorphous "twilight zone" that allows it to ignore the basic human rights when it comes to those it detains in what it is calling "the war on terror". But this twilight zone does not exist except in the imaginations of those who wish to justify their impulses to ignore human rights because of their fear.
Must be nice when you can just make up international law as you go along, rsmythe. The fact that we're talking about a "war on terror" vs. a police action is irrelevant. The key is the status of "unlawful combatants" (which depends only on our enemies' conduct) and WHY the distinction is made.
I would advise those who are interested in this topic to go do some research... but really, this topic is a digression from the subject of the post. I did not wish to let that fact allow rsmythe to say things that simply weren't true without an answer - but having had a back-and-forth and referred people to do research if they're interested, I'll let Lewy14 decide if he wants discussion on that topic to continue in his thread.
I was away for a while as I got a serendipitous chance to go out to eat and see the Star Wars movie. Back now. Movie is off topic – and so is the Geneva conventions. Believe me there is a great deal I’d love to add to the discussion but I’m going to role model some focus here and shut up. I’d encourage all to join me in shutting up. Strongly.
Regarding the torture – I agree with Joe in that torture per se isn’t a sufficient indicator for inclusion in this Briefing. I do think there is a legitimate question as to whether specific, virulent, organized hate was responsible for the abuses at Baghram. Some people may object to even raising the question, but I’ll take it seriously and give it a straight answer.
The kind of expressions which are indicative of hatred and are highlighted in this Briefing are generally “over the top” and quite explicit. You don’t have to “connect the dots”. The burden of proof is pretty high but the sad thing is so many items meet that burden so easily every damn week.
Having reviewed the article again and though hard about it: the evidence points to a kind of collective degeneration to sadism and vengeance, as opposed to organized hatred of Muslims. There was negligence in letting this arise and fester, and delay in squelching it, and it was costly, in lives and reputation. I do think the topic requires attention.
But it does not require it here.
There as yet may come an “idiotarian” quote from some military or government official, demonstrating a completely haywire and unapologetically messed up moral compass, which will find a home in the eponymous section of the Briefing. As yet there is no "smoking idiot".
In general, I’m on the same page with Joe about the topic scope, which is no accident because we discuss it. Large scale is indeed the focus, though sometimes admittedly the casualty statistics are small – e.g. the young woman killed by her parents because she wanted to marry a Muslim – this struck me as a noteworthy expression of religious hate. I think hatred against the Bahai or Zoroastrians (or the Ahmadiyya Muslims of Pakistan) would certainly count; there are stories on the latter that I’m keeping my eye on. The Chinese say a lot of bad things about the Tibetan Buddhist lamas, but not that they should all be killed – if zorkie or I do find something like that, or someone sends it in, it will likely run.
Discussions of scope arise here frequently. Sometime I have more patience and time to answer them. Sometimes less, and for this Briefing said patience is nearing exhaustion. Aside from omissions on account of discovery and time and space (bits are cheap, reader attention is dear) there will always be editorial judgments involved. In this Briefing as of now, those judgments belong to zorkie and myself, with Joe as the final arbiter. If your wondering if we’re totally fair, we aren’t, as measured either by Objective Reality (which we have no privileged access to), or by agreeing with “you” (whoever “you”) are.